Curse

Vengeful Spirit · May 04, 2007, 03:59 AM // 03:59

i agree on one thing and that is avatars=bad i use reapers sweep builds usually and would be interested in the reaper/disrupting dagger build as i have not seen it but i try and make most of my builds and am glad wiki had a wipe

street peddler · May 05, 2007, 05:36 AM // 05:36

dervs are good runners..........yep

Isil`Zha · May 05, 2007, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Using a Reaper's sweep build, I had a situation where two Evis/Exe Warriors attacked me, alone, with no support - in ~25 seconds I had killed them both.

Clearly, if 1 Dervish > 2 Warriors, then 1 Dervish >> 1 Warrior.

Yes, what I did is true (on more than one occasion being outnumbered), as for the second part, I'm mocking your stupid RA anecdotes.

Batou of Nine · May 06, 2007, 04:52 AM // 04:52

hmm well i havent taken the time to read all the posts here, just the OP and a few random posts throughout. So my thoughts may have already been mentioned.

My honest take of the OP's originial thoughts...
First of all, BAD example to base your overall thoughts of a class on. RA? Come on, that is like PvP noob central. You can do the same test you just did on ANY class, and find an overwhelming amount of "crappy/dying/useless" players for that class also.

Admittedly, yes the class is attractive to "noobs", because of the class' natural abililty and synergy for self heals. Basically, a lot of the dervish ability is based on self survival. However, as some have no doubt said already, just like ANY class in GW, it all comes down to skill choices, player skill, and a person's own understanding of that class. With that in mind, dervishes can dish out HUGE dmg, maintain good pressure, and survive at teh same time, all coming back down to skill choices.

Back before the Avatar of Grenth nerf, we saw mass dervishes in HA and GvG. They provided some heavy pressure as well as spike dmg ability, it got so out of hand Anet pushed that nerf. We see dervishes a bit less as much as before in those same places, but are still present. In high end PvP, the majority of players that would play a dervish understand the mechanics of the class and use that knowledge accordingly for very effective teamplay, pressure and frontline assault... Basing the PvP usefulness of a class solely on RA is basicaly irrelavent.

As far as PvE, you say you used a build that seems to be popular even today, and did well with it in PvE, but still was not impressed? Hmm, i would be interested to see taht build you speak of... So, if you WERE doing well in PvE, but was still not enjoying the class, what else do you need? And how was that successful build "dwarfed" by your other classes? If you mean other classes could out-damage, survive better, or were just more fun then your dervish, then i honestly think your "successful" build was non-existant. I have used many many builds and can situate him to do great dps or spike just as well, sometimes better then a warrior. Just curious as to what made it "meh" in PvE for you, as you don't really provide any real reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

im sorry dervs. please post some help/tips or SOMETHING as to what makes you a viable class to this community. the builds out right now are too .. well.. they suck. warriors outclass you, antimelee/spells/daze/and enchant removal own you.. where do you shine??? avatars?? rangers/mesmers disrupt them.. then what? im at a loss of words for a class that just isnt as good as all the others imo

This just solidifies my points. You think all builds out there suck, assuming you have tried every and all build combinations out there? You say warriors outclass dervs, which is yet to be proven, just more opinion based on RA. Watch high end PvP, when you see a dervish there, you will see their PvP effectiveness. You think they are outclassed in PvE? I would say you need to learn the class better, since PvE is where they shine. You say they can be shut down in too many ways; you do realize that GW is a PvP balanced game, right? Meaning ALL classes have a counter and multiple ways of being shutdown. Period.

Your "i still dont like them.." argument is based on such subjective things, that trying to say it is universally bad can only be proven as your own personal opinion (as i assume you mean), rather then a valid and objective observation. Your two main arguements are based on RA PvP (that very irrelevant experiment), as well as your personal experience with them in PvE as being, "meh". Can you honestly say that those points offer any real valid support or truths for your argument? Basing your views that this class is universally bad on those two points is really naive, but in the end, is totally ur prerogative.

This is close to how most people reacted to Assasins when they first swarmed PvE and RA. You are totally justified to have your own opinion, but i would rather you provide some valid/factual points so that a real discussion over class effectiveness could take place. Remember, i am also stating just opinions, none of what i say is meant as an attack or stated as fact. I mean to point out argument flaws so that further intelligent debate can take place.

Hopefully i have provided a good amount of things to ponder.

cheers.

.Unanimous. · May 06, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

apparently i was using a darn good build

I'd like to know what that build was tbh. Firstly, the 130hp thing. You should always DIE first in order to reach 58 health, much better. With this i soloed orosens plenty of times and i could even do 'ok' in missions (i would need very few players in it tho.) as long as its taking huge damage its awesome.
Secondly, you said they're garbage in ra and about that nooby fight. EVERY CLASS HAS NOOBS, its just that dervishes are relativly new so we have swarms of them. Thirdly, Dervish weren't designed to outank war's at all, they're a sort of mix and match of classes. My EDA dervish for example is awesome. I keep mobs constantly blinded and deal decent spikes while my team finishes em off.
I'd find a build that suits, and LEARN to play it rather than taking a build, not using it right and then whining. My derv is my favourite player, and i've helped ALOT of teams through missions, i do TA,RA, AB all doing fine. So dont
judge all dervishes from our current swarms of noobs.

LightningHell · May 06, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Using a Reaper's sweep build, I had a situation where two Evis/Exe Warriors attacked me, alone, with no support - in ~25 seconds I had killed them both.

Clearly, if 1 Dervish > 2 Warriors, then 1 Dervish >> 1 Warrior.

Yes, what I did is true (on more than one occasion being outnumbered), as for the second part, I'm mocking your stupid RA anecdotes.

RA NOT STUPID LOL.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:RA_Consec.JPG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vengeful Spirit

i agree on one thing and that is avatars=bad i use reapers sweep builds usually and would be interested in the reaper/disrupting dagger build as i have not seen it but i try and make most of my builds and am glad wiki had a wipe

Avatars are bad...?

The bad ones I'd say are Balthazar and Dwayna, and still they're not too sloppy compared to other trash elites. Melandru definitely does not fit in the "bad" category.

Mekkakat · May 06, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

hmm well i havent taken the time to read all the posts here, just the OP and a few random posts throughout. So my thoughts may have already been mentioned.

My honest take of the OP's originial thoughts...
First of all, BAD example to base your overall thoughts of a class on. RA? Come on, that is like PvP noob central. You can do the same test you just did on ANY class, and find an overwhelming amount of "crappy/dying/useless" players for that class also.

Admittedly, yes the class is attractive to "noobs", because of the class' natural abililty and synergy for self heals. Basically, a lot of the dervish ability is based on self survival. However, as some have no doubt said already, just like ANY class in GW, it all comes down to skill choices, player skill, and a person's own understanding of that class. With that in mind, dervishes can dish out HUGE dmg, maintain good pressure, and survive at teh same time, all coming back down to skill choices.

Back before the Avatar of Grenth nerf, we saw mass dervishes in HA and GvG. They provided some heavy pressure as well as spike dmg ability, it got so out of hand Anet pushed that nerf. We see dervishes a bit less as much as before in those same places, but are still present. In high end PvP, the majority of players that would play a dervish understand the mechanics of the class and use that knowledge accordingly for very effective teamplay, pressure and frontline assault... Basing the PvP usefulness of a class solely on RA is basicaly irrelavent.

As far as PvE, you say you used a build that seems to be popular even today, and did well with it in PvE, but still was not impressed? Hmm, i would be interested to see taht build you speak of... So, if you WERE doing well in PvE, but was still not enjoying the class, what else do you need? And how was that successful build "dwarfed" by your other classes? If you mean other classes could out-damage, survive better, or were just more fun then your dervish, then i honestly think your "successful" build was non-existant. I have used many many builds and can situate him to do great dps or spike just as well, sometimes better then a warrior. Just curious as to what made it "meh" in PvE for you, as you don't really provide any real reason.

This just solidifies my points. You think all builds out there suck, assuming you have tried every and all build combinations out there? You say warriors outclass dervs, which is yet to be proven, just more opinion based on RA. Watch high end PvP, when you see a dervish there, you will see their PvP effectiveness. You think they are outclassed in PvE? I would say you need to learn the class better, since PvE is where they shine. You say they can be shut down in too many ways; you do realize that GW is a PvP balanced game, right? Meaning ALL classes have a counter and multiple ways of being shutdown. Period.

Your "i still dont like them.." argument is based on such subjective things, that trying to say it is universally bad can only be proven as your own personal opinion (as i assume you mean), rather then a valid and objective observation. Your two main arguements are based on RA PvP (that very irrelevant experiment), as well as your personal experience with them in PvE as being, "meh". Can you honestly say that those points offer any real valid support or truths for your argument? Basing your views that this class is universally bad on those two points is really naive, but in the end, is totally ur prerogative.

This is close to how most people reacted to Assasins when they first swarmed PvE and RA. You are totally justified to have your own opinion, but i would rather you provide some valid/factual points so that a real discussion over class effectiveness could take place. Remember, i am also stating just opinions, none of what i say is meant as an attack or stated as fact. I mean to point out argument flaws so that further intelligent debate can take place.

Hopefully i have provided a good amount of things to ponder.

cheers.

A major flaw in your debate is that you totally accuse me of placing some sort of hatred towards dervs, and that all of my inconclusive testing was done in RA. you flat out didnt read all of the post to even know what all i did. i tested in RA, TA, GvG, HA, and PvE, all of which i was disappointed on my own personal opinions as where the dervish stands in comparison to other classes.
I have multiple test showing the dervish death ratio in all 4v4 battle combinations in multiple testing rounds, with and without team support and overextending, and i participate/observe MANY high end battles, in which usually dervishes are never even involved other than maybe one derv as pressure to allow a warrior or other class to do all the actual damage. i've already "pondered" many things dealing with the dervishes class, and to answer another post, i know all about dying to make the 130 build "more efficient. if you werent so quick to think you know more than everyone you'd also know that its NOT good to ALWAYS die when using the 130 hp builds seeing as your target may call for a different style, so please, refrain from trying to "make me look bad" because you think i have no idea how a derv works, just because i dont like them. you can know EVERYTHING about something, and still not like it. the same thing would happen if you saw a nice imported car, it was fast, powerful, ect, you knew all the specs, but you JUST DONT LIKE IT. people CAN have opinions while being educated, and learning and experiencing everything dealing with said subject in person. i thought the pve was fine, big whoop, pve isnt hard. maybe in HARDMODE, but even then, i dont let or want dervs on my teams. in 4v4 arenas, dervs are cute damage, but for a nice TA team, they're practically nothing. a thumper/warrior or really anything but an assassin maybe, will do much better 9/10 times, and thats an opinion based on factual evidence, observing, playing. i have literally tried every build i have ever seen for pvp/pve IN PERSON, and PROPERLY, and have not been interested in the damage, nor utility of the class. i have also OBSERVED 90% of these builds in said arenas/pve to see if maybe my use was sub-par, and in fact was NOT, and testing became quite conclusive in my previous judgment on my own personal test.

in conclusion, i will make some videos showing some real gameplay, and SSs depicting what i see in arenas/pve that is bothering me. these will not be biased, and will be based on calculated team functions, and not the sole role of the dervish running about with a million healing skills and pretending to be invincible. i will try to make it as fair as possible, and make many test, as to not show only a few "unlucky" runs in either parties case. this isnt to prove anything other than that i want people to understand my opinion, and at least stop bashing me because they read two lines from the OP thinking they know everything in the world.

next time Batou, try reading all of the post before you try godmode in a forum, then you just make everyone look silly repeating what you should have read. : /

Mekkakat · May 06, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

Using a Reaper's sweep build, I had a situation where two Evis/Exe Warriors attacked me, alone, with no support - in ~25 seconds I had killed them both.

Clearly, if 1 Dervish > 2 Warriors, then 1 Dervish >> 1 Warrior.

Yes, what I did is true (on more than one occasion being outnumbered), as for the second part, I'm mocking your stupid RA anecdotes.

ra is by no means something to laugh at due to its unpredictability. ever hear of blind study? a double-blind study? censuses? they all involve RANDOM testing and RANDOM study. it was testing based off of the random team situation and support/utility function that dervishes try/do accomplish. many people used RA as a form of gaining glad points as well, meaning not ALL of the people that play there are retards like you seem to conclude. i easily make 2-3 a day just from ra, and thats a lot of the time having a so-so team in comparison to premade or personal build teams.

congrats, you killed two warriors. what build/skills were you using, what were they? you leave all of that part out in trying to make people look silly, when in fact, what you're saying imo, is you were using tons of healing skills, and they were sub-par warriors. again, congrats. im anxious to see what build you/they were using.. of course, not saying your build is bad, just more or less curious. i know first hand i saw tons of terrible players, not just skills. the skill bar is half the battle, and moreso just the tool. its the hand that runs the skills that makes the teammate. again, my whole OP is about the fact i feel dervishes add more trouble to the team utility/synergy, where as other classes would just excel and not be constrained to enchant/form, lack of team support. yes they can heal others here and there, but thats they're only team roll other than big pressure, and if thats it.. ouch. not saying all classes need to have all this wild team magic happening on one skill bar, that'd be silly to say, but the OPTION should be there. THATS where my problem is. lack of skill function/multiple utility situations where build is more of a 2nd nature rather than "this works EVERYWHERE!!!! dervs are the bestest class ever!" that to me is poor/lack of skill/versatility.

again, my opinion. and doubly again, dont bash an arena/subject/person because you dont like/understand them. if you have an opinion about ra, fine, but dont call it or part of a much larger, more defined test, stupid.. cause thats just stupid.

Isil`Zha · May 06, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

and thats an opinion based on factual evidence

hah, I'm sorry, but this is just too good to pass up - you just admitted that your "facts" are purely subjective, and therefore, completely useless in "proving" how "bad" a Dervish is.

And to preemptively shoot down any "no it's not subjective" BS:

sub·jec·tive Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv]
–adjective

1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions

Mekkakat · May 06, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isil`Zha

hah, I'm sorry, but this is just too good to pass up - you just admitted that your "facts" are purely subjective, and therefore, completely useless in "proving" how "bad" a Dervish is.

And to preemptively shoot down any "no it's not subjective" BS:

sub·jec·tive Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv]
–adjective

1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions

what are you talking about? stating that i was making an opinion based on evidence does NOT disclaim use dude. you're trying to make it sound like im using non-subjective terms to favor my side of the post. i was simply showing that im not trying to objectify or create standards in the thread to make me seem like i want to bash the players or the class. i can not like the class and still like the players/people playing it, or respect their gaming. i think you're way off topic, and would rather not continue this debate.

Isil`Zha · May 06, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

ra is by no means something to laugh at due to its unpredictability. ever hear of blind study? a double-blind study? censuses? they all involve RANDOM testing and RANDOM study. it was testing based off of the random team situation and support/utility function that dervishes try/do accomplish. many people used RA as a form of gaining glad points as well, meaning not ALL of the people that play there are retards like you seem to conclude. i easily make 2-3 a day just from ra, and thats a lot of the time having a so-so team in comparison to premade or personal build teams.

Nice rant, too bad it was based entirely off a distortion of what I said - and strawmen attacks are a no-go. RA Anecdotes was one subject, for some reason you decided to drop that last part. Sorry, no dice. Also, I'm curious just where the hell I said all people that play there are retards... oh wait, that was based on your useless strawman.

Quote:

congrats, you killed two warriors. what build/skills were you using, what were they? you leave all of that part out in trying to make people look silly,

I told you what build, but you seem to have selective reading, as evidenced by this, and the previous statement.

Quote:

when in fact, what you're saying imo, is you were using tons of healing skills,

How about this, next time steer clear of spouting off ignorant, inane ASSumptions like this. I only had 2 healing skills, and really they worked with each other - no one of them was not Mystic Regen.

Quote:

and they were sub-par warriors.

Oh, that's right, I forgot, any Dervish you come up against is an experienced one, and any Warrior that loses to them must be sub-par, right? That's not even an argument, it's an empty excuse.

<snip snide remarks>

Quote:

im anxious to see what build you/they were using.. of course, not saying your build is bad, just more or less curious. i know first hand i saw tons of terrible players, not just skills. the skill bar is half the battle, and moreso just the tool. its the hand that runs the skills that makes the teammate.

As far as I could tell, both of them were using a standard Eviscerate/Executioner's Strike build - I didn't get to see what other utility they brought to prevent kiting, since I never attempted to run away. No, they didn't Frenzy themselves to death either. How could someone really screw the spiking part of that up that much really such that the Warriors would be considered bad? Did A/W BoA 'sins need a good hand behind them? Nope, your broad generalization fails. Ironically, the "hand that guides it" is more true for a Dervish than a Warrior when it comes to how well they perform, especially in the build I used.

As I recall, I was using Vital Boon, Reaper's Sweep, Victorious Sweep, Sand Shards, Heart of Holy Flame, Signet of Pious Light, Twin Moon Sweep, and a Rez Sig.

Quote:

again, my whole OP is about the fact i feel dervishes add more trouble to the team utility/synergy, where as other classes would just excel and not be constrained to enchant/form, lack of team support. yes they can heal others here and there, but thats they're only team roll other than big pressure, and if thats it.. ouch.

Oh really? I guess 1000+ dmg in ~1 second doesn't count as a spike... sure it was conditional, but a very common condition, and also convieniently destroys your "Dervishes are shut down more easily than Warriors." Tell me, when was the last time your Warrior, while blinded, spiked for over 1,000 damage, and continued with 300+ DPS, taking out 4 opponents in a few seconds?

It was a typical tactic, my Dervish was "shutdown" (or so they thought) with blinding, and covered up with weakness, crippling, and bleeding, as 4 melee characters came in to kill me while I was blinded. Going by your "facts" my Dervish is more easily shutdown by blinding... oh wait, what's this? Sand Shards triggers off each opponent, and since a miss doesn't count as a hit towards the Scythe's 3 hit AoE, it triggers off each opponent - one swing of the scythe with no attack skills dealt out 320 damage. Combined with Twin Moon Sweep to double that, stripping off Heart of Holy Flame for burning (and the damage from Heart of Holy flame just before) in ~1-2 seconds, accross 4 characters, I had dealt a nearly instant 1,016 damage after that first swing of 320 (I didn't know I was blinded yet until then), and each follow up swing of the scythe added another 320. There was no way for the monk(s) to keep up (I don't remember if there was 1 or 2 monks supporting those 4), and it all happened so quickly it was too late by the time they tried to run and in about 6 seconds all four of them were dead, all while I was blinded and was not built specifically for this type of situation, not at all.

But ok, we'll just say that a Dervish is more easily shutdown than a Warrior and that they can't spike...

I won't hold my breathe for any kind of remotely similar ability of a Warrior to pull off, while blinded.

And just so it's covered, I told my monks not to remove the blind after the first swing, because this isn't the first time I've used Sand Shards to great potential.

Quote:

not saying all classes need to have all this wild team magic happening on one skill bar, that'd be silly to say, but the OPTION should be there. THATS where my problem is. lack of skill function/multiple utility situations where build is more of a 2nd nature rather than "this works EVERYWHERE!!!! dervs are the bestest class ever!" that to me is poor/lack of skill/versatility.

Wait, what? It's poor versatility to be able to do work everywhere? (Really, I'm not being snide, the wording is confusing/contradictory.) I will say that several of my builds are very versatile and adaptable - most of which is based on my ability to play them correctly.

For instance, someone stripping my enchantments? Apparently for you, it shuts you down when playing a Dervish, more proof that you are not an experienced Dervish player. When I come up against enchantment strippers (be they Mesmers, Necros, other Dervishes, ect), I change my tactics/play style. As an example of the above, I'll use the stripping against them. I'll leave my enchantments off and close in, using say, Heart of Holy flame on them. If they want to be set on fire while I'm beating the life out of them, they can go ahead and strip it. When I want a heal, I'll put up my Vital Boon and let him strip it - hey, thanks for the heal.

So much for all this talk about a Dervish being shutdown easier than a Warrior...

Quote:

again, my opinion. and doubly again, dont bash an arena/subject/person because you dont like/understand them. if you have an opinion about ra, fine, but dont call it or part of a much larger, more defined test, stupid.. cause thats just stupid.

Strawmen are also stupid, try again.

BTW, apparently it flew over your head, even though I spelled it out - the example of my Dervish taking out two Warriors with an established and well-known build for damage and spiking was to mock your anecdotes. To show that I can "prove", in the exact same way you did, the exact opposite of what you did - that a Dervish will destroy Warriors.

And at least mine was more specific, against a build well-known for high damage.

On another note, I agree that there are a lot of Dervish players that take mostly healing skills and that those builds are useless. For some stupid reason though, you used those kinds of builds as a norm for Dervishes, which again goes even further to prove that you've been using inexperienced scrub Dervishes in your examples.

Isil`Zha · May 06, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

what are you talking about? stating that i was making an opinion based on evidence does NOT disclaim use dude. you're trying to make it sound like im using non-subjective terms to favor my side of the post. i was simply showing that im not trying to objectify or create standards in the thread to make me seem like i want to bash the players or the class. i can not like the class and still like the players/people playing it, or respect their gaming. i think you're way off topic, and would rather not continue this debate.

You've admitted that your views on Dervishes and how they perform are purely subjective.

Upon closer inspection in my last post, it becomes even more clear why such anecdotes are useless.

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

if you're done ranting dude, i don't feel the need to continue talking through your wall of arrogance. you bash what others say, then you expect them to lay down and take it cause you make up some ridiculous story about freaking sand shards doing three trillion damage, when in fact its never ever done anywhere close to that in any way, combination ever. get a SS of sand shards doing anywhere near 1000+ damage and i'll chew my own hand off kid.

otherwise, i'm done talking to you, anyone else with knowledge or opinions that aren't rants/flames on what others have posted so far, please continue to explain your use/utility for your dervish, and what makes them a great class for you to play.

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

also.. for the record lol..

sand shards at 16 earth=26 damage (if you run a nooby 16 earth in pvp)

thats at most in best conditions ever in the history of the game, you stand still, 3 people run up to you, you get all the wild conditions, all while having enough time to activate Shards and fury, then to swing at all 3 (seeing as you state you hit 4... read up on how many scythes hit???) would go something more like this.. (while blinded)

26x3=98

or, while using Twin...

26x6=132

at best conditions again, Twin being used meaning...

26x6x3=396<<< thats when using Twin, IF all 3 are near you, IF you have all those conditions met, and on top of that, if for whatever reason you get lucky enough for all your damage enchants to fall off/shed off, adding in some burning/whatever..

a second swing would do a the first round of damage calculation, and unless for whatever reason their whole team was hugging you, monks would, or at least should heal their team. again, this damage calculation was totally exaggerated, and basically just trash talk working its way into a little white lie.

where in the world did you get over 1000+ damage each, instantly killing everyone on their team, instantly ignoring all damage deferral done by monks? cmon dude, you bashing me is one thing, fine, you obviously like your derv, which is great, your attitude and lying isn't. : /

if you have an opinion, i'd love to hear it, if you have a debate, even better, let's participate, but you go right for the throat from the start. yeah, i started the debate, that was the idea, i knew i'd get criticism, a couple rude or slanted remarks, but you're just out to get me cause i dont agree with you, and worse off, you're trying to win with false statements. making me look like a bad guy won't win a debate, just makes you look silly : /. i say bygones be bygones, less argue, more constructiveness.

Samurai-JM · May 07, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Sand Shards with that much damage in the beta when it wasn't just scythe attacks. Back then people used it combined with a scythe and dagger attacks I think, it just spammed mass damage and wiped teams instantly. Now it just sucks unless coupled with signet of midnight, in which case it still sucks! GG.

Dervs are pretty nice professions in some aspects though. They are fun to play in PvP, and they are great runners in PvE. I have fun testing a lot of unique builds on them like D/N and D/E builds with various uses.

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

wait wait wait, i was reading over some of my own post and forgot to mention my derv in pve was one of my best runners i've ever had. ty for pointing that out Samurai.

Van vincing · May 07, 2007, 01:07 PM // 13:07

to be honest, nobody needs to convince anyone to like a character, just like theres no way u can like another sports team when ur already in luv wif one. If u never liked dervish, u never can. No matter how much explaining we do, u'll always look for a counter. So to be honest this is pretty useless

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Van, i understand trying to convince someone is pointless, i made the thread to see what others thought of the class themselves, not to become anything but enlightened on why and what makes the class enjoyable to you. i know what classes i play/love, and i would and have defended them before on many post on Guru, and i expect you all that like dervs to do the same. it's not to start an argument, but more of a way to see something along the lines of is the grass any greener over there kinda thing. no, no one will probably make me ever want to say "i love dervishes", but at the same time, i've already grown to say i dont hate them anymore

... like eles.. hehe thats a diff thread jk.

its a class, a different class, some people will like it, some wont. i didnt like its characteristics, so i fit the i dont like it group, but in order to not make my judgment seemingly made out of ignorance, i want to make sure i have reason to feel that way. i like all classes in some way or another, but communities for classes, and characteristics sometimes i dont. no, this thread is by no means important, or anything of that sort, but it is interesting and somewhat educational to see how people react, and talk about how they enjoy one of their favorite classes. i bet if there was a thread like this in every profession specific area, people would be going nuts, debating, explaining, and educating others about what and why the class is great in their opinion.

its just a community thing, makes some annoyed to have talks like this, but i think its good for people to express their opinions in a calm, educated manor, so that in the end, at least people feel like the RPG of the game is still what makes it something realistic to grab on to.

Isil`Zha · May 07, 2007, 06:29 PM // 18:29

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Originally Posted by Mekkakat

if you're done ranting dude, i don't feel the need to continue talking through your wall of arrogance. you bash what others say, then you expect them to lay down and take it cause you make up some ridiculous story about freaking sand shards doing three trillion damage, when in fact its never ever done anywhere close to that in any way, combination ever. get a SS of sand shards doing anywhere near 1000+ damage and i'll chew my own hand off

Start chewing, I explained it, and you just dismissed it cause you don't want to listen.

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otherwise, i'm done talking to you, anyone else with knowledge or opinions that aren't rants/flames on what others have posted so far, please continue to explain your use/utility for your dervish, and what makes them a great class for you to play.

Right... proving you wrong is a "rant", and you "disprove" it by saying "NUH-UH!"

Concession accepted, in fact, lets blow apart your next post:

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also.. for the record lol..

sand shards at 16 earth=26 damage (if you run a nooby 16 earth in pvp)

My SS was only set to do 20 damage.

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thats at most in best conditions ever in the history of the game, you stand still, 3 people run up to you, you get all the wild conditions, all while having enough time to activate Shards and fury, then to swing at all 3 (seeing as you state you hit 4... read up on how many scythes hit???) would go something more like this.. (while blinded)

Strawmen again, it doesn't count when you alter what I've said and then attack your altered, distorted view. It was 4 people that ran up to me, and 4 people I was "hitting" with SS. If you had bothered to actually read the post, instead of turning rant = on you would've realized that since I'm missing, they do not count as hits. Sand Shard triggers off each person in range of the scythe, regardless of how many people its already "hit" (since there are no scythe hits involved.)

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26x3=98

And you fail completely and further prove your ignorance of the Dervish. When SS triggers, it hits all foes nearby - oh, and it's continuing your strawman (meaning you've already lost, as you're not even arguing against me, you're arguing against yourself, but I suppose you'll come up with some excuse along the lines of "that's stupid, I'm not arguing with myself."

So, one trigger of SS will hit all 4 opponents. Since all 4 were in range, it triggers off each of them, with each trigger dealing its damage to each opponent - or 4 times for each trigger, thus, the correct math, using the correct values is 20x16 = 320

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or, while using Twin...

26x6=132

at best conditions again, Twin being used meaning...

..and you continue to prove your ignorance. Twin moon triggers twice off each opponent - each trigger causes SS to deal its damage twice to each foe, or 8 times for each trigger x4 foes, for a total of SS's damage triggering 32 times.

20x32 = 640

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26x6x3=396<<< thats when using Twin, IF all 3 are near you, IF you have all those conditions met, and on top of that, if for whatever reason you get lucky enough for all your damage enchants to fall off/shed off, adding in some burning/whatever..

Incorrect, if you knew how SS actually worked you might've been close. And "some burning/whatever?" That's not even an argument, that's you just mumbling and dropping out cause you don't even have an argument, especially since the first part completely fell apart. And what's this "lucky enough to fall off" crap? oh, I guess that must be your ever apparent ignorance of the Dervish, since Twin Moon Sweep strips off an enchantment.

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a second swing would do a the first round of damage calculation, and unless for whatever reason their whole team was hugging you, monks would, or at least should heal their team. again, this damage calculation was totally exaggerated, and basically just trash talk working its way into a little white lie.

Unfortunately for you, it wasn't exaggerated in the slightest, you are just ignorant of how SS works and you were completely wrong with your math. And they were all melee, so of course they were in.. melee range.

Also, explain how a monk is going to deal with 1000+ dmg spread across 4 teammates? They could infuse one and stop 1/4 of the damage... but a second later another 320 damage hit.

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where in the world did you get over 1000+ damage each, instantly killing everyone on their team, instantly ignoring all damage deferral done by monks? cmon dude, you bashing me is one thing, fine, you obviously like your derv, which is great, your attitude and lying isn't. : /

Right, this coming from the guy that constantly alters what I say and bases your arguments on that slander. That's called a strawman, and renders your entire argument invalid. (Like the part about killing their entire team, please actually read what your replying to instead of making shit up.) That of course discounts your 100% wrong math of Sand Shard's effects.

So, here's the whole thing, also another note that further proves your inexperience of playing a Dervish, my Sand Shards was already up before I approached them, so here's the entire situation as it happened started with me being blinded.

Blinded
Swing, while blinded, at the 4 characters to deal damage with Sand Shards: 20x4 opponents x 4 SS hits per opponent = 320. Total Damage (TD) = 320
Heart of Holy Flame: 52x4 = 208. TD = 528
Twin Moon Sweep: 20x8 (4 opponents hit twice) x 4 SS hits per opponent + 3 sec of burning (42x4) = 808. TD = 1,336

Q - E - D

Each normal swing causes an additional 320 damage.

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if you have an opinion, i'd love to hear it, if you have a debate, even better, let's participate, but you go right for the throat from the start. yeah, i started the debate, that was the idea, i knew i'd get criticism, a couple rude or slanted remarks, but you're just out to get me cause i dont agree with you,

Hey, when I do something I do it right the first time, instead of dancing around with the small, menial stuff. The math says you're wrong. Its becoming ever clearer that you have no intention of wanting to be told what's so great about a Dervish.

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and worse off, you're trying to win with false statements. making me look like a bad guy won't win a debate, just makes you look silly : /. i say bygones be bygones, less argue, more constructiveness.

hah, this coming from the guy making constant strawmens, completely wrong numbers, and continues to prove you don't know what you claim you do.

Hello Pot! This is kettle, you are black.

I also noticed a distinct lack of you being able to prove that a Warrior could do anything like this while blinded- concession accepted, on both counts - the second being that a Dervish is "more easily shutdown."

Also, please stop with your false claims of being experienced with a Dervish, it's become readily clear that you're not, as you lack the basic knowledge of how the skills even work.

EDIT:

I do happen to have one screenshot of SS's potential. This was with SS only doing 17 damage, with one attack, dealing 391 damage. (You can add it up yourself.)

Mekkakat · May 07, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

your contextomy is based on some strange anger, and for that, im not going to continue to talk to you. you win dude, im not really sure i care whether or not you think i can play a dervish, seeing as i know i can, people see me play them all the time, and frankly, you're important enough for me to try to prove anything to. congrats, you use sand shards, a super crappy move that no one uses, as it only works if you fight retards that stand in a hugging circle with you. who cares? no one, get over yourself, and take the "strawmen" with you. you're bad attitude is what makes fun post about opinions totally annoying. good job flamer.